getting unverified / flagging / anti-cheating
Ambassadors

I received a message from @Zeljko-Stanojkovski
that my account was flagged for activities that are considered gaming the system in an artificial or unethical way.

This makes sense, because while I’m spending at least an hour per day developing the embedded playlist BETA, there will be many plays coming from my same IP address.

From now on, when I’m developing, I’ll make sure that the autoplay value (preview) is set to TRUE, so that I don’t trigger plays. However, this brings up a few points…


Spotify has a required minimum time each track has to play before counted. This is an easy fix (I THOUGHT MUSICOIN ALREADY DID).

Youtube has a quota of 1 play per user account on each video. Although that might be too drastic for the music format, it would make sense to have a quota of 1 play per account PER HOUR or something like that, which would allow people who want to hear a song more to do so A. WITHOUT triggering a UBI payment B. WITHOUT raising the play count C. WITHOUT criminalizing excited listeners and musicians D. WITHOUT discouraging developers.


  1. I thought UBI prevented plays counting within 1 minute of the last play. If so, there’s no reason to worry about listeners playing more than once in a minute because it won’t count

  1. I thought our community was leaving the traditional industry model of penalizing listeners for “pirating” music, as opposed to thanking listeners and LESS POPULAR ARTISTS for playing music as much as they want. We discussed this in the video interview with Deadly Buda

  1. There are ways to prevent straining the UBI pool without stopping music plays, development, and the blockchain ethos of ENCOURAGING participation rather than criminalizing it.
  • MUSICOIN could program a simple condition in the code before accessing UBI payment:
  1. If this track was already played by this user account in the last hour don’t count more plays

  2. If this track was already played by a public listener (not logged in a user account) in the last hour, don’t count more plays from this IP address.

  3. If ANY track reaches the MUSICOIN hourly maximum (set by MUSICOIN staff) don’t count more plays from ANY source.
    (this also encourages longterm activity, community participation, and commitment instead of just having a popular artist come in for a day and get a million plays, cash out, and then leave the community)

  4. It’s a lot less time consuming, demoralizing, to handle this with code than it is to flag and criminalize people. Especially since people who are switching from other popular platforms to MUSICOIN are really investing in a more humane way of relating to each other, exchanging value, and encouraging participation instead of criminalizing.


Thanks for your attention @Zeljko-Stanojkovski @im @hayrullah-cansu @hayrullah-cansu-0
I look forward to the growth of MUSICOIN both in popularity and in sophistication.

Thank you!
Khaiim (Self SUffice)

last edited by KHAiiM

This is a quality post. States the problem, proposes ways to fix it.

@khaiim great post… Question to the forum: are there any devs to respond or help out in this area??

Update: Verified again thanks to Zeljko’s quick reply!

@KHAiiM My account suddenly appears to be unverified as well. Hope devs will respond to your in-depth post (problem + fixes). I added your embed player to my blog’s playlist and tracks received plays because of that (actually 1 track in this week’s top played, which as of now is unavailable … ) Hope they will verify my account again soon. Thanks again.

last edited by SPAWN

@khaiim

Self Suffice!

I love your approach to this. Smart, mature, and a big step forward on the legacy music industry. Don’t penalize and criminalize users for listening to music. Instead, just make it hard to profit from spamming and bots.

I endorse 💯

Take it easy

last edited by Ęmpire of Łights
Ambassadors

I too have been using your playlist code because I watched your interview and then read your posts on here and there was no mention of it being something that was frowned upon by the musicoin team, so I assumed it was fine to continue to use it.

I too have been testing my playlist and I agree that there should be an automatic way for the system to not pay plays from the same user within a given time frame rather than delist tracks and un-verify a user. One slight issue with the IP address is that public places, such as coffee shops, may use a single IP for all users. However the likelihood of more than one user listening to the same song at the same coffee shop is pretty remote and I would rather not be paid for that anyway if it is easier to implement.

I have over 2700 musicians on my website AtomCollectorRecords.com and we are very supportive of each other and there are usually 100s if not 1000s of plays between us on SoundCloud and Spotify on a daily basis. That is what we do, support each other. We love our music and we are passionate about helping each other succeed. We don’t game the system, we just listen to each other’s music regularly.

I have been slowly inviting my most trusted friends from there over to musicoin so there will be an increase in plays between us as we are moving over from SoundCloud & Spotify.

There will come a time when individual tracks will have 1000s of plays a day, if not an hour, especially as the large EDM & Rap networks from SoundCloud get wind of this.

Musicoin has an opportunity to become the most loved and trusted music service on the internet but it is really important that we all take this opportunity to work together and not feel as though it is another “us and them” offering.

I really hope the team take notice of this because we all want you to succeed and you have our full backing if you can work with us not against us.

I too look forward to a response from the team.

Let’s make this FANTASTIC!

JJ.

ive posted a link to this thread on the slack channel and the discord as well.

Here is a list of the current ADMINS for these forums. Hard to say who is in charge of what, what time they operate or anything of useful detail, but at least we can see who they are.

https://forum.musicoin.org/groups/administrators

last edited by darksidejosh
Ambassadors

Thanks @darksidejosh for your attention and the admin list. Truly appreciated!

I’ve previously tagged @Zeljko-Stanojkovski in the thread, for bringing this issue to me and sending the original email, and I tagged @im and @hayrullah-cansu who’ve also been very helpful on the MUSICOIN FORUM in general. I’d also like @infinity @Joel-Bevacqua @jamesdpitley @vg @Musicoin-Developers and the other @admin to chime in.

As we can see from the well thought out, and compassionate posts on this thread, we are all here to HELP MUSICOIN grow. Not just in popularity and sophistication, but in moving beyond the outdated parochial paradigm of the pre-blockchain music industry. In this sense, I think it’s a GOOD THING I got flagged. Let’s resolve this quick and make MUSICOIN a place we want to promote more, instead of less…

As @juxta and others are pointing out, this will soon be a place where thousands of artists - many of whom get thousands of plays every day - are coming to join. Let’s solve these issues NOW and celebrate our collaborative community work ethic, instead of waiting for the upcoming traffic to either crash 1. an unsustainable method of counting plays or 2. an unsustainable method of criminalizing musicians & listeners

Thank You!

PEACE
Khaiim (Self Suffice)

last edited by KHAiiM
Ambassadors

“@KHAiiM - I received an email as well as I was testing the platform, showing friends/family, etc… account got flagged and unverified. I managed to get it back to verified by emailing back and explaining the situation to him. At the least there is a system in place that will not let anyone just loop their own tracks and earn money, etc… for that I applaud the system that at least there are checks and balances in place. Here to keeping everything honest, open and fair for everyone!!!”

Thanks for updating me @Marcus-LeBlanc I also received an email from @Zeljko-Stanojkovski . He understood the issue and reverified my account - THANKS Zeljko!

I’m glad the system is being checked for fairness as well, and yet I think we should see if the suggestions raised by this thread can be implemented. Why spend time monitoring what people MIGHT do wrong, when we can use code to prevent people from doing wrong? This is part of the ethos of block chain. Why trust bankers and politicians when we can trust cryptography math and technology that applies to all of us the same way?

I know this is getting kind of deep LOL! But really do think this brings up a great opportunity to prepare for the influx of new artists, in a way that will save a lot of human time, encourage playing, encourage promoting, prevent straining the UBI pool, and keep the block chain going. What do you think?

last edited by KHAiiM

Well it seems like you have surrendered your pride in this issue and are coming from a loving place with this post where you have seen from every point of view.

@khaiim
Sound thought process and ideas. There are still more areas to consider. Other platforms have a “Time” consideration also. In today’s world of routers and multiple users in households and businesses there is often multiple individuals utilizing a single public IP address. Artists , their families and workmates etc will often get excited and multi play new releases, often from a single IP address. Other platforms acknowledge this and effectively have a time period after initial release where multi play is allowed. It makes sense, allows new artists and families/friends to get excited, join the platform, generate market and play the song initially. The idea is a percentage will end up staying and continue to play others. It is a smart decision that aides in platform/market growth and every platform allows a period/number of plays within original listing, of this.
It is a far more honest way of growing the platform and listener base then getting a small group of fellow musos already on the platform to agree to play each others music on rotation at a given time. If the platform is reduced to small groups of incestuous replay by existing members, the coin will become valueless and the whole notion of deriving actual income for your music from this platform will end.
We need to support each other certainly but audience growth is the only real journey to actual income for this platform. No Audience, no income. Anything else is just another free music sharing site with no real artist reward.

last edited by Goose S
Ambassadors

@goose-s please tell use more about how this would work
1.at first when they’re getting promotion with multiplay

  1. after that period what would change?

@khaiim
Hey Khaiim.
It’s pretty simple really, at least it sounds simple the way it was explained to me. It’s a matter of setting parameters regarding IP address play. The date and time of upload is incorporated. The parameters are more complex of course and include total values, stream breaks and continuum over measured periods etc.
Once parameters are reached it becomes an if/then instruction. Play counts cease going up from that IP address even when song is played until figures below new set, past figures from the IP remain part of the new parameters.
It’s why you’ll often find Spotify artists ask why they play their songs but the count doesn’t move. They don’t have the problem initially, but they do later on.
You don’t need to “unverify” anyone or start the whole negative punishment/ I’ll make exception for buddies accusations. You get professional and incorporate automated boundaries, beyond which further plays from a single IP are rendered pointless. It doesn’t interfere with other platform users enjoying and streaming a particular song.
It’s really a pretty simple concept, efficient and automated but requires some coding effort and proficiency obviously. I believe we have a crew capable of it technically, I’m not quite as positive they get it conceptually

last edited by Goose S
Ambassadors

Okay @goose-s thanks for clarifying! So that sounds exactly what I proposed in the original post above. It’s actually not difficult code wise because it can be a conditional statement (as I described in the post above.

There are 3 conditions

  1. is if “this” user account has played in the last hour… don’t increase counts or make smart contract
  2. is if “this” IP address has played in the last hour… “”
  3. is if “this” track has received [staff set quota] plays from ANY not logged in accounts (public listeners)… don’t increase “”

Those 3 conditional statements should cover it. And actually do to IP address connecting to particular networks or individuals being an inaccurate way of tracking… we could really just use condition 1 and 3 to solve the issue right?

PEACE!

So you already are verified again? Whole Team except Shamino is refusing to talk to me since i got de-verified and de-assigned from the Mod position on Discord. I can even prove who it was, but no one seem to care. Wrote Email, Wrote to Devs. Nothing, no response

So please, tell me your Magic Spell 😉

@khaiim I agree. These are all great suggestions that I would support. There maybe needs to be a “dev” environment or a way that those want to create plug-ins, new tools, etc… are able to do so without getting penalized. Maybe some sample soundbyte tracks, a sandbox of tracks that UBI never pays to, something like that. Would help in others not getting flagged but still encourage development to spread the word, the music and keep the community growing with useful tools/apps.

Ambassadors

@david-bentler Yes, check the post above for contacts to the devs. There really busy with the wallet improvement now, and currently the system automatically flags conspicuous activity, so it was nothing personal. But please refer your friends to this post so they know you were just helping test the new embedded player. I also had another interview with Deadly Buda yesterday and he’s really excited about the player being developed.

If you haven’t gotten a reply yet. Reach out to @Zeljko-Stanojkovski . And let him know you’re using the embedded player BETA. They’re just busy now, but will get back to you. I’m really sorry for the inconvenience brostar - PEACE!

@khaiim
You got it. There is no need to start this entire unverified confrontational approach.
It is a simple fix, less time consuming, more efficient and platform positive.
Unverifying Musicians is confrontational, unnecessary and frankly unprofessional. It introduces all the arguments and time consuming redress management admin then has to deal with. Anyone caught up in this should be re verified immediately the code is updated as required. You don’t permanently hamper and lose from the platform musicians who probably still have lots of music to participate with on this platform and associations to bring with them. It’s simply not necessary. Shit don’t people realise how many 'Stars" of today have tried all sorts to get their music forward. You don’t cut them off from platforms and musical promotional bodies. You put processes in place and use the technology.

last edited by Goose S

@khaiim About “Deadly Buda” - he seems to be some kind of official ambassador / public face for Musicoin. Why does he not have a profile here? This seems odd to me!

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